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Attack Potency vs Split Durability
Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 05:46 PM (3,469 Views)
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Well now that I think about it maybe it be could be enough to debunk it. He did it with not much ki left. Idk. Usually I'm for split durability I've just never been good at countering the planet explosion argument.

I think it's hard to get around because when I look at the size the explosion I think he is relatively close to the center so how could he not have taken a considerable amount of it?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 13 2017, 08:07 AM.
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So you think Frieza took on A LOT more then a fraction of the explosion?
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I don't think he took 100% of it. I just think it's a bit silly to say that Frieza didn't take at least a considerable amount of it. I think even if he took 1/10th of it we should still be considering it as an impressive feat considering he did it with not much ki left and goku's punches were making him cough up blood
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 13 2017, 07:12 PM.
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Hmm...okay then. I'll add more to this topic later today though.

Edit: That's my point, if Goku can make him spew blood and even manage to kill him, when a planet's explosion just knocked him out while he was depleted of ki, sliced in 2, and beaten up by Goku, all this prior to a Spirit Bomb was dropped on him, then his punches at least are planet level. Him punching away a planet busting ki blast also implies his striking strength is above planet level.
Edited by Solid Snake, Feb 13 2017, 08:54 PM.
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I know this is a random continuity to talk about but remember how bojack was trapped in a star? Didn't cell exploding on King Kais planet cause the star he was trapped in to blow up to and set him free?
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Yeah but we don't know what kinda star. But it was a seal that kept the star intact and once King Kai's planet exploded, it was no longer holding him.
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I just thought of something. I might be oversimplifying this lol but bare with me

If we said Frieza took 1/100th of the explosion's force that would be low balling it right? Or does that sound about right? Idk. Either way, 50 moons would make up the earth. So would that put Frieza at half moon level? Or let's say 1/500th of the force. That puts their punches at 1/10th moon level. If you think about it that's still a lot. That's like what small country level? Point is, even a fraction like that of namek's explosion is considerable
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 15 2017, 05:18 AM.
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Ssj3vegito96
Feb 13 2017, 12:44 AM
Ssj3vegito96
Feb 13 2017, 12:00 AM
Mihawk
Feb 12 2017, 09:13 PM
I never agreed with the Potency of AoE theories, I prefer to just accept the given feats and not over analyze beyond that for creating a list of feats.

As for why their punches are so weak compared to Ki interactions I like the explanation of split durability. Freeza's case is easily explained by having a third set of durability which is planet destruction durability. People with higher power levels in the magnitude of 100x or more (idk anything about PLs) were scared of not being able to live a planet's destruction when Cell made the threat despite the fact that they'd have 2-3 minutes of breathing to move everyone to King Kai's planet via IT. Goku literally said "I can't think of any other way" ruling out every other possibility that could happen. Freeza himself was scared of getting caught up in it so that takes care of the idea that the only issue was breathing in space.

And if you're one of the people that consider Super or the movies to be canon, it appears that even Beerus had to run away from a planet's destruction. He can breathe in space, yet Whis had to create a protective sphere for them. He's seen multiple times running away from planet's destruction before they can happen. Not a single instance where anyone that doesn't have Freeza's DNA was able to survive a planet's destruction. Also explains why Trunks had to destroy Freeza down to every single cell.
Just something I wanted to note. Beerus also said he enjoys watching a planet exploding. Idk which scene you're talking about with whis putting a barrier around them but it could've been for two reasons: Heat or because they were protecting goku and co. too


Anyway, I know I'm always the one arguing Frieza didn't even take half the planet explosion but after rewatching the scene where it explodes I'm starting to wonder whether it matters how far he was from the center of the explosion. Look at how big the explosion is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5rheoSsfBU

:45 look at how big the planet is and then look at the explosion
Nobody is going to read this?

What's this third durability? I'm not sure I buy it tbh but I don't understand what you're getting at? That the raw force of explosions are separate from energy blasts and punches?

The video scene I linked he didn't even look at the planet, he just dipped right away. It seems to play into the general theme that even Toei picked up on.

And yeah, there should definitely be a third one for at the very least for heat and radiation, the question is whether the raw force should be included as well.

And sorry for not replying, I didn't see your post - I'm super busy lately.
Solid Snake
Feb 13 2017, 06:43 AM
Probably, but that doesn't prove it was a good idea. The mere threat of Cell's destroying earth was too great to chance since like you said, would cause him to blow immediately. Goku's option was the best solution logic wise and out of universe wise.

If the planet isn't there, what air is Goku going to breathe? The whole point of destroying Namek is so he can take advantage of his ability to survive space.

A planet explosion is different then a ki blast with planet level destruction in terms of deadliness. If the planet explodes, it's game over since whoever can't survive in space will die. A planet busting ki blast is something that's condensed and can be tanked, or reflected so it isn't an immediate threat. Notice how Super Saiyan Goku was expecting Frieza to use the planet busting ki blast on him and being shocked at the fact he used it on Namek instead? Afterwards, Goku noted Frieza didn't want to get caught up in the explosion and die after. Here, Frieza announced he could survive in space I believe so at this point, its known that he planned to suffocate Goku.

I'll have to reexamine that scene.



The point is - once again (third time?) - that he says there was no other option. It doesn't have anything to do with best option. It means he can't live and then IT away the survivors. Trying to IT before hand might have made Cell go off early. If he takes Cell with him, Cell has no chance to go off early. The fact that Goku says there are no other options means there are no other options. They can't live through one nor have they ever.

Goku and co can hold their breath for a few minutes at least. So he can at least IT away for those few minutes.

And I'm pretty sure that like in the rest of the series, Freeza is telling Goku there's nowhere to run. Dodging the blast might be simple enough, but if you try to escape you'll just suffocate. Nothing wrong with Freeza's plan.

Ssj3vegito96
Feb 13 2017, 07:27 AM
Why does it matter whether someone can survive a planet explosion? I understand that there's another durability regarding heat resistance, etc. But just the raw force of an explosion? That's what's important and I don't see how it's necessary to have a third durability for that. Frieza took the force of the planet exploding and I have to wonder...look at the size that explosion. It's so big that he's relatively close to the center. So Frieza being deep(water was rushing in for a for a while) in the ground on namek when it exploded means he probably took a decent amount of it no?

Even if he took like...1/10th of the force of the explosion that should be impressive no? Not enough to debunk split durability but it means that their punches should be nearing moon level right?

I'd say that since it's already shown for sure to be a separate type for at least heat then it's possible to speculate that the raw force might be separate as well. Although I see what you're saying.

One thing that might pose a serious issue for "planet level" here then is that gravitational collapse can take places over tens of thousands of years. So whatever happened with Freeza, the most serious of it might just be his own attack imploding on itself and the true feat is him living through the heat of an accelerated gravitational collapse.

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Mihawk- That isn't what that scene is trying to get across. Besides, Cell's explosion is what killed Goku not the planet explosion. If anything, Cell's self destruct potency was above planet level due to that scene. The planet no longer being there IS the threat the heroes and earthlings faced, cause if they can't breathe, they'd die in seconds.

I never said anything was wrong with his plan, Frieza knows hr can't defeat Goku so he planned to suffocate him via eliminating the planet.
Edited by Solid Snake, Feb 15 2017, 09:30 PM.
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It is is a general theme that's been come across in the series and yes it also seems to be what that scene is showing. Everyone suddenly got scared of him when he said it including the arrogant people like Vegeta. Not breathing doesn't kill you in seconds, I'm not sure where you're getting this information.

And yes I agree with you on that being Freeza's plan.
Edited by Mihawk, Feb 15 2017, 09:31 PM.

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Mihawk
Feb 15 2017, 09:02 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Feb 13 2017, 07:27 AM
Why does it matter whether someone can survive a planet explosion? I understand that there's another durability regarding heat resistance, etc. But just the raw force of an explosion? That's what's important and I don't see how it's necessary to have a third durability for that. Frieza took the force of the planet exploding and I have to wonder...look at the size that explosion. It's so big that he's relatively close to the center. So Frieza being deep(water was rushing in for a for a while) in the ground on namek when it exploded means he probably took a decent amount of it no?

Even if he took like...1/10th of the force of the explosion that should be impressive no? Not enough to debunk split durability but it means that their punches should be nearing moon level right?

I'd say that since it's already shown for sure to be a separate type for at least heat then it's possible to speculate that the raw force might be separate as well. Although I see what you're saying.

One thing that might pose a serious issue for "planet level" here then is that gravitational collapse can take places over tens of thousands of years. So whatever happened with Freeza, the most serious of it might just be his own attack imploding on itself and the true feat is him living through the heat of an accelerated gravitational collapse.
No worries about late response

But would you agree with pretty much everything I said? Is that how it works or am I oversimplifying it? It's impossible to say exactly how much force frieza took but even 1/1000th(not sure if that's low balling or what) of the force it's still considerable especially since it would put him at small country level(?)

Since he did it with not much ki left it could be in line with someone a power level of maybe 250? When their blasts were on that level. Lot of assumption there but makes sense to me
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 15 2017, 11:13 PM.
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I'm saying that Freeza's damage he accrued was mainly from his own attack rather than then planet collapsing. Gravitational collapse usually takes a very long time so it's possible any direct damage he took was from the Ki attack or the heat/radiation.

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I agree frieza's and goku's energy blasts dealt a lot of damage and gokus blast effected him more than the explosion

But could you explain a little more what you're getting at? I don't know how gravitational collapse works and what it causes tbh but I mean...there was a pretty big explosion lol. And if you're saying gravitational collapse is something that happens over a long time then why bring it up? Are you saying there wasn't much raw force in the explosion?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 16 2017, 06:53 AM.
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Mihawk
Feb 15 2017, 09:30 PM
It is is a general theme that's been come across in the series and yes it also seems to be what that scene is showing. Everyone suddenly got scared of him when he said it including the arrogant people like Vegeta. Not breathing doesn't kill you in seconds, I'm not sure where you're getting this information.

And yes I agree with you on that being Freeza's plan.
Mihawk- I was referring to the fact of them not having any oxygen in space, Saiyans and Namekians might still be conscious till 15 seconds. And once they're unconscious, it'll be too late for them to save themselves.

Also, how can you prove it was Frieza's attack that damaged him and not the planet's explosion? This is my chain for his tolerance:

Future SSJ Goku > SSJ Goku (punches and ki attacks) > Frieza (durability) >> Planet Explosion

His ki attack was already passed by and caused the core to go haywire, heat or radiation probably did a little damage. The main thing DB characters had to deal with is the explosion of the planet and then lack of oxygen. Frieza pretty much made it crystal clear the explosion, heat or radiation was the true threat, if Frieza can survive it Goku can too (he would take "some damage" too nonetheless).
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